Curse

Red Locust · May 30, 2005, 04:57 PM // 16:57

I'm sure we're all familiar with the standard 3 monk teams that are all over the Tombs. In fact, monks come into groups specifically requesting at least 2 other monks, else they leave. Hell, we're seeing teams of 5 monks holding the HoH numerous consecutive times.

And how many teams have a mesmer? I'm not just talking about a secondary mesmer, since those are usually inspiration mesmers for the energy drains. A good mesmer can not only completely shut down a monk, but also force other monks to divert their attention to that one monk. 2 good mesmers can probably shut down every single enemy monk as long as they coordinate their attacks properly. Yet, the trend still seems to be, "I'll just get more monks than the other guy and out-heal him to death." Mesmers are being kicked in favor of more monks, hell, everyone is being kicked in favor of more monks. Are people just not familiar with what the mesmer is capable of? Or do they just not trust the mesmer with taking on such an important job? I'm willing to bet that an extra mesmer can do much more for the team than an extra monk.

Caco-Cola · May 30, 2005, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Most Mesmers don't do their jobs.

I for one find it hard to shut down a monk because while I"m killing their monk I have a warrior killing me and thus that distracts our monks into healing me and not my team and then my team dies.

Elythor · May 30, 2005, 06:07 PM // 18:07

A well-played mesmer can shutdown/hamper two monks quite well...enough so that the team's damage dealer can take down a guy fast. I'm sorta bragging here...but the mesmers in my guild are really good. So all I have to say is to keep practising and getting the right combo.

BTW, if you think power-spike/drain etc would hurt a healing monk...think again. Most of their spells can be cast so quickly and cheap that interrupting them is pointless. Putting extra points into illusion to get Arcane Conundrum might be good...but that means your other lines may not be optimal.

Nessaja · May 30, 2005, 07:20 PM // 19:20

The thing with mesmers is... sure they shutdown casters, but they're easily killed by rangers/warriors just the same

Epinephrine · May 30, 2005, 07:23 PM // 19:23

If you are bringing a mesmer into PvP you should have people helping protect him/her, or it's pointless. Many groups target mesmers as they know that the mesmer can mess withtheir monks (and thus their healing) and as a result you have to protect the mesmer, much as you would protect the monks.

Nessaja · May 30, 2005, 07:25 PM // 19:25

monks are easier to protect, if you have a monk with ward against melee (often) and a good amount of healing, healing seed, etcetera you can keep yourself alive for a long period of time.

Mesmers on the other hand.... pacifism and...

Red Locust · May 30, 2005, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Mesmers might be an easy target, but so are ele's and monks, and most people go after the monk first.

A monk by himself really doesn't have any protection vs. mesmers other than Spell breaker or maybe protective spirit (just to prevent the damage). Oh, and arcane conundrum works great with interrupts, especially ones that drain energy or do damage.
Not to mention that mesmers built for anti-monk duty can totally tear up elementalists and necros. Although it is true that a lot of mesmers don't know what they're doing, a good one is really important to a team.

BrandonIT · May 31, 2005, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Although it is true that a lot of mesmers don't know what they're doing, a good one is really important to a team.

I'd really like to see more about how to be a good mesmer in PvP. As a Level 13, I'm just now starting my training in PvP so I can be somewhat experienced by the time I hit 20.

I know that the skills I have as a Mesmer can be used effectively in PvP, I find I die far too quickly, usually to the other team's warriors.

The_difference · May 31, 2005, 08:18 PM // 20:18

First off, mesmers are under rated. If you use then correcting, you can seriously tweek an opponent out till there death. Im a mes/warr and set myself up to be a warrior slayer. Its funny in the arenas watching warriors sprinting towards me as if im a typical weakling only to find themselves face down dead with an axe in there head.

Creed · May 31, 2005, 09:42 PM // 21:42

The topic of this threads nearly right.. but not quite

Not enough (good) mesmers? Is a bit more accurate.

The problem is alot of the mesmers, i've seen atleast tend to think their power lies in conjure phantasm and trying to directly hurt their enemies. Random pick up games anyway.

It's rare to simply meet a mesmer who can disrupt and delay an opponent, if you know one tell that person my guilds recruiting

BrandonIT · May 31, 2005, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Creed, I believe you are correct in your Conjure Phantasm point. I keep Illusion Magic on my Mesmer for that spell only at this point in time. It works GREAT in PvE to help out. But I've noticed it seems useless in PvP. I've thought about dropping my 6 points of Illusion for 6 points in Inspiration so I can get more energy stealing skills. I think they'd be a lot more useful as I tend to run out of energy pretty quick in my PvP battles.

I do believe Mesmers are underrated as well. I believe that playing a Mesmer well, is a little more difficult and requires very good timing for many of the interrupts.

Zodiac · May 31, 2005, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Conjure Phantasm is used in PvP, though not for damage, but for covering up other hexes. Granted you can cast other hexes to do the same thing, but Conjure Phantasm has fantastic cast time, decent duration and medium cost.

Lord Yulath · Jun 01, 2005, 05:34 AM // 05:34

I am currently playing a mesmer, and as such am trying to learn the trade. I have noticed that in pve, the few combat spells mesmers have can typically be more useful early game rather than late. But as the caster rate seems to rise dramatically, i think it is useful to switch to more hex's etc... to smite down the casters. I am finding that i have to redistribute my skills, and my attribute points now that ive hit the crystaline(sp?) desert.

Right now, im aiming on getting the timing down.

rii · Jun 01, 2005, 10:55 AM // 10:55

If you want a cover hex, use mind wrack. Its cheaper, lasts longer, and will probably do more damage than conjure if somehow its activated. and the cooldown is the same.

Red Locust · Jun 01, 2005, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Mesmers are quite bad in PvE. Sure, creatures don't stop casting despite backfire, but most get in melee range and start hitting mindlessly. As a result, most mesmers bring conjure phantasm, chaos storm and empathy and try to do direct damage.

Unfortunately, this mentality carries over to PvP and quite a lot of mesmers try to be the elementalist that they were never meant to be. Chaos storm + conjure phantasm and some other DoTs aren't gonna make your mesmer a decent damage dealer. It's all about draining energy, backfiring, and interrupting the casters. You should be able to completely shut down casters and, to a certain extent, monks.

lightblade · Jun 01, 2005, 05:11 PM // 17:11

1 mesmer can shutdown 1 monk quite easily, 2 monks is become challenging, 3 monks is almost impossible.

to shutdown 3 monks, you'll need 2 mesmers.

Best way to shutdown monk: (as a team)
Warrior/Ranger do criplling monk so they won't run away
Mesmer call target, all team member focus fire the monk.
Mesmer cast blackout on monk, disabling all the monk skills, he can't heal himself and dies

If there is a 2nd monk on their team, the other monk will attempt to heal the first monk, so cast diversion and/or shame on him before you black out the first one, as immediately cast diversion and/or shame again on the first monk as soon blackout is over on yourself, because the monk WILL attempt to heal himself

lightblade · Jun 01, 2005, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creed

Not enough (good) mesmers?

Agreed 100%

Feli · Jun 01, 2005, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightblade

Agreed 100%

Honestly... if you are putting it this way...
I can say a lot of similiar things about other classes too. I play a mesmer/war and a monk/ele in PvP.

A good mesmer is hard to come by... agree. But so is a good warrior, a good ranger, a good ele, a good necro and finally a good monk. Some players have not even the slightest bit of common logic on them.

They are like mindless creatures and yes, it is time to discriminate. I've played in many a two bad PuGs and now i am stating rules for my team. I'm telling no one how to play his/her character. What i demand is common sense and on top of that... the ability to think of the game as a... well... game.

Earlier in the game i used to wait until i get invited to a team, now i create them on my own. If my team is set i will say one single line "Any pro-gamer is now free to leave, as you are hampering your team with your attitde".
After that almost everytime atleast 2 ppl leave right away with some "****ing noob!!!!" comments. Funny isn't it? Especially funny when my team is doing hell of a lot better without them.
I don't have problems when someone is not GOOD in the meaning of skill and tells the team right away. I try to give him some duties that will get him learning and tell him that we are relying on him. I am not telling them what to do, but i tell them what i roughly expect to happen and don't care about how it happens. What is the thing you see? Most appreciate it as they get a special task and can concentrate on that. Instead of being told "****ing noob, use empathy!!!".

Now that is my complaint about it.
You want good mesmers and good monks? Do not ask for them to join your team in the following way "Party looking for experienced members!!!" as you will most likely get the 0815 standard moron who thinks he is uber and everyone else is inferior.
Have a look on your team and how it behaves while you are setting up the group one by one. A monk pops in and demands at least two other monks? Well, assume him uncapable of teamplay and kindly lead him out of the team. Kick. He might be right about the monk thingie, but popping in and trying to be the partys dominating part is just ruining morale.
A good team will take a while longer to set up than the random pug looking for experienced players. And most astonishingly it most probably won't be the standard 3 Monk Setup. But in the end it will work out great.

And no, i am no superior teamleader or anything. I just got fed up a bit on the typical PUG

/edit:
Sidenote:
I prefer new players above old ascended and professional players. Why? Because they are willed to adapt and willed to learn. The problem about all those "good" players is that they think they know how the game works and tell everyone else.
Dude, never tell me how to play my monk or you might drop out of my healing queue anytime soon

FuriousGoddess · Jun 01, 2005, 06:28 PM // 18:28

I play a mesmer and I own casters. You are right, there are some crappy Mesmers out there, but there are an equal amount of good ones too...they just don't want to play on noob teams that still don't know how to focus fire.

A good Mesmer is always on an off target, it's job is to supress healing from other monks (monks that will be healing the other monk you have targeted). When somebody calls a target, I look for a secondary or third depending on if we have 2 Me; thats who I go after. Open with shatter enchants drain enchant (if they are running them, which good monks always are) and then energy burn or backfire, energy drain then run in for a finishing blackout (sometimes in the middle, a sig of weariness). After the monks are down, the other casters are so easy to kill I don't even have to try.

The skills can be mixed up, but I tend to go with energy drains and enchantment removal with backfire and usually one protective stance. 14 Dom, 14 inspiration, 7 fast casting.

Another thing for Mesmers to keep in mind, with the very popular ele air builds, where 2-3 of these things nuke the shit out of you and your monks, bring along Mantra of Lightning (your monks will love you for it).
" For 30-78 seconds, whenever you take lightning damage, the damage is reduced by 26-45% and you gain 1 Energy.". Its funny when three ele hit you at the same time for only half dmg (the 45% is at 12 points inspiration, most ppl run 14-15). Another great one is Hex Breaker, when other Me's try to backfire you, it fails and they take 50dmg...fun fun. But take one or the other but not both.

Mind wrack is a nice touch when you are energy draining, you will take them to zero and they will take dmg. Energy burn, energy tap, energy drain, ether feast, sig of weariness and you just drained 58 energy. Time your mind wrack and backfire with energy draining and you become a real pain in the ass.

Illsusion line sucks really, it has a few good skills but it is not for the shutdown Mes (and thats the only thing a good mes should be). A W/Me with illusionary weaponry however will kick your ass.

Kaylee Ann · Jun 01, 2005, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Groups who are losing their mesmers to melee have a lot more to worry about then having a good mesmer. They aren't even getting the fundamentals right.

And I can say most classes don't have good players too. A lot of people have their 'superior' build that they will use despite what the other 7 in the group are doing. This game isn't about templates, it is about working together. Having the right template works, but it doesn't mean jackshit when everyone is doing their own thing.